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中国与世界,环境危机大家谈 CHINA AND THE WORLD DISCUSS THE ENVIRONMENT

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上次 Last post: 27 Nov 22:10
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中产阶级对这些价值观的发展很重要

彼得•辛格谈到了一个好的话题。但重要的是我们必须记住这些崇高的价值观和理念是很难在一个基本生活条件还没有到位的国家实现的。在中国千百万的人们还生活在贫穷的生活状况中,比如说没有足够的食物,没有上学和就医的条件,买不起省时的家电如洗衣机等。
我的问题是:如果人们平均需要一周花2到3个小时的时间来手洗衣服和花一年的工资来只是做一个普通的手术等,那你认为他们还会有时间来担心他们的食物从哪里来的吗?所以,在先保证基本的条件之后,其它的一切才会适时可以实现。

Being middle-class is so important to values

Peter Singer talks a good case. But it is important to remember that it will be difficult for such lofty values to
flourish in a country where the basics are not yet in place. Hundreds of millions of Chinese people are still faced with basic poverty - insufficient food, poor access to basic sevices such as schools and hospitals and low ownership of time-saving devices such as washing machines. So my question: Do people who spend, on average, 2-3 hours handwashing clothes per week and require a year's salary to pay for a routine operation etc have time to worry about where their food comes from? Deliver the basics first and the rest will arrive in due course!

合理消耗

我们需要知道这样的一个事实:中国的人均GDP还小于2000美元,而那些富裕的发达国家却比我们要富有10-20倍。美国的人均收入已经超过了40000美元;它只拥有世界上5%的人口,却消耗着世界上25%的资源。在那些富裕的国家里的人没有一个有权利去告诉中国减少消耗量。但是确实明智的消费,包括保护自然环境,将是符合中国和整个世界的利于的。

Rational consumption

It is essential to keep in mind this fact:
China's GDP per capita is less than US$2,000 while the rich countries have 10-20 times more wealth. The US per capita income is over US$40,000; and with 5% of the world's population, she consumes 25% of world's resouces. No one living in the rich countries has the right to tell China to consume less. But it is in the intersts of China and the world that she consumes wisely, including protecting the natural environment for her peoples.

出口并不是解决问题的办法

辛格大多数文章我都很喜欢,我本人也是一个素食者。但是,我对关于中国应该加大对世界其他国家有机食品的出口的评论十分不赞同。这种观点对环境保护没有任何意义。人们热衷有机食品,但是英国超市里现有的大多数有机食品都是过季或者从几千里以外运过来的。每个国家都应该尽可能支持当地和该国食品生产政策。

Exporting not the answer

I like most of Singer's article and am myself vegetarian. However, I am uneaasy about one of his last comments that the Chinese could increase their exports of organic food for the rest of the world. This is something that does not make environmental sense - the talk is now off food miles, and eating locally. People enjoy and promote organic food - but most of that which is available in British supermarkets is out of season and transported 1000s of miles. Every single country should be supporting policies of producing food for local and national consumption whenever possible.

己所不欲,勿施於人

这文章有著很关切的研究,甚或内容表明畜牧业对地球资源以至人体健康有莫大的伤害。但作者并没有说明制造这个问题的幕后黑手…西方的思维、西方的生活方式、西方的饮食习惯、西方的工业模式、西方的农业模式、西方的商业模式…西方文化如癌细胞似的在侵害著中国;可恨的是西方已偿到苦果,亦知问题所在,很多甚至在其国家被禁的行为,但在利益推使下都跑来中国,或哄或骗的在中国发展起来,有如二百年前的鸦片一样,令中国中毒上瘾。

当年西方在中国贩卖鸦片但最後演成中国要割地赔款。今天西方工商百业来中国投资,推展西方模式,尚未能计算其破坏所及但是己受到西方各方面的指手划脚,甚或说成是威胁全球、威胁人类。西方人可否先自首再学中国固有文化,其中一个简单为人处事之道“己所不欲,勿施於人”。
--纽约Vegan--

Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you

This article demonstrates thoughtful and concerned research, explaining the effect the livestock industry has on global resources, to the extent of having a significant detrimental impact on human health. The writer however never explains who constructed this problem and the perpetrators behind it...western ideas, western lifestyles, western eating habits, western industrial models, western agricultural models, western commerce model ...western culture, encroaching like cancer cells on China. It is a pity that even the West has already swallowed its own bitter fruit, and also knew what the problems were, yet, many have come to China with a drive of profit, practice cheatingly those business conducts which are even banned in their own countries. The situation is just like the illegal opium trade about 200 years ago. It has caused China a new poisonous addition. Because the western nations sold opium in China, it ended up that China had to cede territory and pay indemnities to them. Today, the western industry and commerce come to China to invest and promote western models. Yet, it hasn’t been able to calculate the damage such caused, China has already been criticized by the West. Some even condemned it as a menace to the world and humanity. Why not Westerners first admit their mistakes, then study Chinese culture? There is a very simple way for human interaction: 'Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you' -----New York Vegan

鸦片战争

对于鸦片战争以及西方在中国环境问题的责任的抱怨,现在难道不该停止了吗?中国对于自身环境的破坏有三千多年之久。好好想想吧。中华文明发源于黄河河曲。而今,那里成了沙漠。是外国人干的?是西方企业的责任?不是,是中国人自己的破坏。如今,草原也正在蜕变成荒漠。那里也并没有什么外国人。你是否曾经询问过(或被告知)大跃进期间,在毛主席下令开垦草场后,那些草原的命运。查查看吧。(而且我可以给你一点提示,那时根本没有外国人的介入。)你们抱怨说,西方人在兜售他们的消费模式。确实。而且的确这些模式很糟糕。但是你们并不需要照单全收。你们应该自己作决定(毫无疑问,更先进的决定)。中国当时也并不需要引进共产主义理念,这一理念,我隐约记得,是起源于德国的。我很希望能够看到更多的产于中国本土的好主意,但我满耳充斥的却是对于西方的抱怨。在一方面,中国的形象是一个有着4000年历史的强大文明;而另一方面,中国却像是西方文明的受害者,可怜兮兮的。哪一个才是她本来的面目呢?如果这个文明真是如此先进,那为何她扩张进入的疆土多成为不毛之地?当满族人统治满洲里的时候,那里还有些森林。但现在,都消耗殆尽了。当然,我们要学习中华文化。但只有当这个文化提供一些答案而非仅仅是借口的时候,她才是值得学习的。

opium wars

isn't it time we stopped blaming the opium wars and the west for China's environmental problems? China has been destroying its environmental riches for more than 3000 years. Think about it. Chinese civilisation began in the bend of the Yellow River. Now it's desert.Was that foreigners? Was that western companies? No it was Chinese destruction of the Chinese environment. Today the grasslands are turning to desert. Not many foreigners there either. Have you ever asked (or been told) what the effect was on the grasslands of the Great Leap Forward when Chairman Mao ordered that the grasslands be ploughed up. Check it out. (and I'll give you a clue.. there weren't any foreigners involved at all)
You complain that Westerners are promoting their models of consumption. Of course.. and they are bad, yes. But you don't have to buy these ideas. You don't have to buy these ideas.. you could make your own (no doubt superior) decisions. China didn't have to buy communism either.. which, I seem to recall, was an idea that began in Germany. I would love to see some really good Chinese ideas, but all I hear is complaining about the west. On the one hand China is portrayed as the big powerful 4000 year civilisation, on the other, as the poor victim of the west. Which is it? If it is so superior, why is it that all the territory that the Chinese have spread into has been turned into barren land? When the Manchus controlled Manchuria, there were forests. Now there are none. Sure. let's study Chinese culture. But it's only worth studying if it has some answers and not just excuses..

我关注彼得•辛格的意见

我同意5楼寻找自身原因和传统文化答案的观点。

中国一半国土曾经是提供安全畜产品的草原和荒漠地区,几千年来形成了人类独特的游牧文化,那里曾经是人与自然和谐共处的乐园。

但是由于中国历届政府200年来持续的无序开发,打乱了人与自然和谐发展的传统秩序和生产方式,今天那里的生态和民生问题目前已经影响到了中国的可持续发展,尤其是1997年前后实施的牧区平分草场到户政策,造成游牧文化的衰微和内蒙古草原地区游牧生产方式的彻底消亡,它的直接后果是几年之内,草原牧区原生植被逐渐发生了负向演替,内蒙古草原地区几乎成了荒漠化、贫困的代名词。

在这种背景下,中国农业部一些官员和一些专家提出了圈养、舍饲等“西方畜牧业工业化生产方式”。。。

更多内蒙古传统草原地区信息和背景资料请看“曾经草原”网站和自然之友保护草原联合项目网页:
http://www.cy.ngo.cn

http://www.fon.org.cn/channal.php?cid=502

陈继群

Taking note of Peter Singer's suggestions

I agree with comment 5 that we should explore the cultural background to this issue.

China has a long history of nomadic culture, as half of its land was developed for raising livestock.

Some 200 years of unregulated and reckless development has destroyed the harmony between man and the nature on the pastures of China.

The deteriorating ecology and livelihood of people there have posed a threat to sustainable development in China.

The policy introduced in 1997, to allocate grasslands to individuals, has led to the decline of nomadic culture and an end to the nomadic mode of production.

As a result, the grasslands of Inner Mongolia have been threatened by desertification and ensuing destitution.

Under this situation, some officials from China's Agricultural Ministry proposed adopting western practice of settled and industrialized animal husbandry.

A site on grassland protection: http://www.cy.ngo.cn http://www.fon.org.cn/channal.php?cid=502

Chen Juqun


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