中国与世界,环境危机大家谈 WHERE CHINA AND THE WORLD DISCUSS THE ENVIRONMENT



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chjy002tw

2012年2月6日14:31

06 Feb 2012 14:31

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良好的意愿而以

如果加拿大人愿意牺牲他们的环境来换取石油的利益,那么没有理由相信中国人会比加拿大人更关心加拿大的环境。中国可能会明智地和加拿大沥青砂油保持一段安全距离。同样的,中国本应该会更明智地不从伊朗买油。但是他们还是买了。从中国一直做生意的方式来看,“北方门户管道计划”几乎可以确定不是一个输油管道梦。

Wishful thinking  

If Canadians are willing to sacrifice their environment for oil profit, there is no reason to believe that Chinese will care more about the environment of Canada than Canadians do.
China might be wise to keep a safe distance from dirty Canadian tar sand oil. Similarly, China would be even wiser not to buy oil from Iran. But they do. Judging from what China has been conducting business, Northern Gateway pipeline is most certainly not a pipe dream.

 
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agy100

2012年2月7日13:12

07 Feb 2012 13:12

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一个合理的警告

真是一篇好文,同时也是一个有理有据的警告!
加拿大保守党的行为怎能如此狂妄?

A fair warning  

Well written - a fair warning!

How can the Canadian Tory government behave that insolently?

 
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haefen

2012年2月7日17:23

07 Feb 2012 17:23

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事实上的错误

这篇文章,连同许多同一主题的文章,都是不成立的事实,只不过是政治信仰而以。我只谈一谈其中的几个片段,实际上本文的每一段都是建立在空谈之上。

来自油砂的产品有沥青和合成原油,以及所有可以从中提炼的产品。合成原油,有需求才有生产,此特性让其成为最可爱的石油产品。

生产过程中的水几乎是完全可回收的,一些工厂根本都不用江河水,有些工厂使用河水,也仅仅是弥补蒸发而以。一个普通的城市使用的水远远大于这些。

相比其他大部分行业,它对环境的破坏造成的损害是微不足道的。所有项目都有回填计划,事实上一些项目已经在这样做。相比,世界上很多城市扩张中发生的负面效应,都还没有得到补救。

加拿大是一个大国,有大的湖泊,海洋和广袤的森林。加拿大的自然界吸收的二氧化碳比它们产生的要多很多,并且几十年来一直在吸收世界上的碳。

世界上没有任何的石油,像加拿大的石油这样面临着这么多环境和人权的条条框框的限制。

Factually incorrect  

This article, like so many on the topic, is not founded on facts but political beliefs. I'll just touch on a few as almost every paragraph is based on myth.

Products from the Oil Sands are Bitumen and Synthetic Crude Oil and all the products that can be refined from those. Synthetic Crude is made to order making it the sweetest oil available, if that is what is ordered.

Water is almost completely recycled, some plants draw no water from rivers, others use river water to make up for evaporation, only. An average city uses much more water.

The environmental damage is insignificant compared to the damage caused by most other industries. All projects have reclamation plans some of which have already occurred. Something we have yet to see for areas affected by urban expansion internationally.

Canada is a large country, with large lakes, oceans and many forests. Canada naturally sinks more carbon than they emit and have been sinking the worlds carbon for decades.

No oil in the world faces as many environmental and human rights restrictions as Canadian oil.

 
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lanlin

2012年2月7日19:54

07 Feb 2012 19:54

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贸易应对社会和环境负责

Angela,你的文章很有想法,我希望评论也是有见地的。在中国从事环境和发展问题已经六年,清楚地看到全世界都面对着短期经济增长和长期经济健康、人和环境之间的斗争。大企业和它们政治上的支持者已经失去了绝大多数人的信任。如果我们想要一个健康的未来,那么需要拥有良好意愿的人们应该共同努力。

企业和政府应该利用一部分经济收入支持社会发展、教育和环保事业。加拿大人也应该意识到我们是在以健康、他人的幸福和环境为代价致富。

至于我的中国朋友们,情况则完全不同。在中国企业走出国门走向世界的同时,中国应该确保它们的行为尊重人权和环境。加拿大沥青砂油和北方门户管道计划项目冒风险展开公平、公开的公共审议流程对加拿大作为民主国家的名誉至关重大。这个问题不仅仅关乎钱,现在如此,未来也应如此。

Trade must be socially and environmentally responsible  

A thoughtful article Angela, I wish the comments were as well informed. Working over the past 6 years on environment and development issues in China it is clear that the same battle between short-term economic gain and long-term health of economy, people and the environment is being fought across the world. Big business and their political advocates have lost the trust of most people. Men and women of goodwill must work together if we want a healthier future.

Our businesses and governments should use some of their economic gains to support social development, education and environmental protection, and Canadians need to realize we are enriching ourselves at the expense of the health and well-being of others and the environment.

As for our Chinese friends, the shoe is on the other foot. As Chinese enterprises go abroad China has the responsibility to make sure its behaviour respects human rights and the environment. The Tar Sands development and northern gateway project risk both and a fair and open public review process is essential to Canada’s reputation as a democratic society. This issue is and must continue to be about more than money.

http://www.harmonyfdn.ca

 
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o.boyd

2012年2月8日2:46

08 Feb 2012 02:46

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回复:Haefen的“事实上的错误”

Haefen你好,

你的观点很有意思。你能给出那些消息的来源吗,以便让其他读者自己去阅读去思考?

对于你提到的加拿大碳汇方面的观点,不能因为加拿大拥有天然的碳汇优势,就赋予其多排放的权力。如果气候变化问题可以用国界线划分,那加拿大或许可以保持其自身碳排放和碳吸收的平衡。但是,气候变化是全球性问题,每吨二氧化碳的排放,无论它源自哪里,都是影响着每一个人的全球性问题。

Reply to Haefen 'Factually Incorrect'  

Hi Haefen,

Interesting comments. Can you give us some sources to back them up so other readers can look at the issue themselves?

On your point about Canada being a carbon sink: just because Canada happens to have natural carbon sinks doesn't mean Canada somehow has a right to emit more. If climate change was limited by national boundaries then perhaps Canada could control its emissions to keep in step with the uptake of its carbon sinks. But climate change is a global problem and every tonne of CO2 emitted, no matter where it comes from, represents a global problem that is shared by us all.

 
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haefen

2012年2月8日4:32

08 Feb 2012 04:32

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加拿大给出解决方案

对于那些那些关心环境和人权的人们来说,油砂和北美管道提供了一个过渡油源,而这是现有最好的折衷办法。

在地球上其他地方建造运作的管道并没有像在加拿大那样严格审查。例如,我们很少听到有关俄罗斯或从苏丹南部经过肯尼亚管道建造的消息。

加拿大对管道话题的讨论持开放态度,这也意味着它要达到别人无需达到的标准。

今天,我们用石油用来种植粮食供人食用,用来家庭供暖制作塑料。石油正是我们10亿人生活在这个脆弱的星球上的基础,但是我们也需要鼓励更好的能量来源。

油砂也是石油。它昂贵并且受到严格监控,常在现代环保标准健全的国家制造,最重要的是它是接受大众的审查。

像油砂这种价格昂贵的石油,为许多一些更可持续的能源打开了市场。未来能源的趋势也许不再是石油,但仅就今天来说,我们最好的选择也许就是加拿大石油。

Canada offers the solution  

The oil sands and north american pipelines give those concerned about the environment and human rights a source of transitional oil that is the best compromise available.

The pipelines being built and operated elsewhere on the planet do not have the intense scrutiny those in Canada have. For example we hear little of the pipelines in Russia or those being built from Southern Sudan through Kenya.

Canadian pipelines are open to discussion and must meet standards others could not.

We need oil today to grow food to feed people, to heat homes, to make plastic. Oil is the very foundation of our ability to have 10 Billion people living on this fragile planet. Yet we need an oil that encourages better sources of energy.

Oil Sands oil is that oil. It is expensive, heavily monitored, and made in a country with modern environmental standards and most importantly is open to scrutiny.

Expensive oil, like that from the oil sands, open the markets to the many other much more sustainable energy sources. The future is not oil but today the best oil for those concerned about the future is Canadian Oil.

 
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yugong

2012年2月8日14:36

08 Feb 2012 14:36

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加拿大土著居民致中国人民的一封公开信

他们抗议史蒂芬·哈珀在自己的土地、领土和水域上兴建安桥北方门户管道和油轮的计划。他们说:“哈珀计划修建一条1200公里长、从阿尔伯特省的油砂田到太平洋的石油管道,这违反了我们土著居民的人权。我们不会允许哈珀让输油管道强行通过我们的土地。根据联合国国际法,我们有权抵制这条管线。我们会实行自己的合法权利,保护我们的水域远离漏油风险。
我们是​加拿大不列颠哥伦比亚省菲沙河流域的土著民族,拥有自己的独立主权。这些水域将我们多个民族维系在一起。 安桥公司试图通过建立管道,从菲沙河上游抽取大量焦油砂,然后用巨型油轮承载这些石油通过极度危险的水域。一旦石油在我们的土地和河流中泄漏,我们的鱼、水,人民、生计,以及未来都会被毒害并摧毁。海岸线的石油泄漏更会使成千上万人的海鲜鱼类的来源(比如螃蟹)遭到破坏……”中外对话的读者是怎么看的呢?”

Native Canadians write an open letter to the Chinese people  

They are protesting against Steven Harper's plan to build the Enbridge Northern Gateway Oil Pipeline and Tankers through their lands, territories, and watersheds. They say: "Harper plans to violate our indigenous human rights to build this 1200 kilometre oil pipeline from the Alberta oil sands to the Pacific Ocean. We will not allow Harper to force this oil pipeline through our lands. Under United Nations international law, we have the right to say no to this pipeline. We will enforce our legal rights to protect our waters from this the risk of an oil spill.
We are the sovereign Indigenous nations of the Fraser River Watershed in British Columbia, Canada. We are many nations, bound together by these waters. Enbridge wants to build pipelines to pump massive amounts of tar sands crude oil through the Fraser’s headwaters, and then use giant oil tankers to carry the oil through very dangerous waters. An oil spill in our lands and rivers would destroy our fish, poison our water, and devastate our peoples, our livelihoods, and our futures. An oil spill on the coast would destroy sources of seafood and fish, like crabs, for thousands of people..." What do chinadialogue readers think??

 
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cgn

2012年2月8日15:7

08 Feb 2012 15:07

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回复“良好的意愿”

亲爱的“良好意愿”:这篇文章的关键不是加拿大人“愿不愿意牺牲环境来换取石油利润”,恰恰相反,加大拿政府或许愿意这么做。但目前保守党政府仅获得不足24%的有效支持率,加拿大人曾多次表示环境保护要优先于经济增长,但政府对石油贸易更感兴趣,因此,许多人认为这是民主的失败。

Reply to 'wishful thinking'  

Dear 'Wishful thinking': the point of this article is not only are Canadians not "willingly to sacrifice their environment for oil profit" - quite the opposite. Perhaps the Canadian government is willing. But the current Conservative government received less than 24% support of those eligible to vote. Canadians have repeatedly expressed that they want to prioritize environment over economic growth, but the government is more interested in oil revenue. Many see it as a failure of democracy.

 
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cgn

2012年2月8日15:11

08 Feb 2012 15:11

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回复:Haefen

我向你保证,文中所列举的诸多环保主义者都有着他们自己的政治信念或社会信仰,他们希望所生活的社会是一个在科学的基础上制定政策的社会,而不是一个由特殊利益驱动的社会;是一个尊重法律程序,尊重比现任掌权者更早就居住在那片土地上的原住民的需求的社会;是一个维护每一位成员的荣华和幸福,子孙后代的幸福的社会(不仅仅是金钱带来的幸福感)。这些社会信念应该体现在我们的政策上,但现实却并非如此。这是一个政治问题。

如上所述,许多加拿大环保人士认识到全球能源需求的现状,倡导要负责任地开发油砂。希望他们在发出此呼吁的同时,也关注能源消耗的控制,以及更深远的经济增长问题。

你的观点完全符合加拿大政府的主张,即加拿大油砂更受青睐,因为加拿大是一个尊重人权的民主国家。哈珀忘记了四年前他拒绝出席奥运会,并且直言不讳地批评...

Response to Haefen  

I’ll assure you that many of the environmentalists cited are driven by political, or social beliefs: the belief that they want to live in a society where policy is driven by science and not by special interests, a society which respects legal process and the original land claims of peoples who were there well before those currently in power, and a society which ensures prosperity or happiness for its members (which goes far beyond money) including for future generations. These social beliefs ought to be reflected in our political system but the reality is that currently they are not. This is a political issue.

As mentioned, many of the Canadian environmentalists recognize the reality of global energy demand and advocate for responsible development of the oil sands. Hopefully they do so at the same time as discussing limits to energy consumption and more broadly, economic growth.

Your comments are exactly the same as the Canadian government’s line that Canadian oil sands are preferable because they come from a government that respects human rights, a democratic country. Harper forgets that only four years ago he didn’t attend the olympic games and has been an outspoken critic of

 
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haefen

2012年2月9日22:46

09 Feb 2012 22:46

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补充两句

CGN你好。政治问题不能成为改变事实的借口,同样科学也不能依赖于个人的政治信仰。我认为除了某些鬼鬼祟祟的人以外,双方还是在某种程度上达成了一致。这就应该引起人们思考,他们究竟想建立一种怎样的社会。

几乎在地球的每块领土,都会有拥有者之外的人宣布拥有。但如果想尊重所有的声音,最终只能引来战争和流血。如果大家都能搬回到我们原来的家园---非洲,这样想想感觉不错,但在现实世界中根本不可能。

支持加拿大的一些声音实际上就是在支持种族隔离制度,这和南非的情况一样不道德。这在情理之中,因为南非的制度正是建立在加拿大的基础之上。由于道德和基本人权的关系,这样的制度,以及其中的种族隔离和种族歧视,甚至仅仅是部落和家庭的歧视,都不应该得到丝毫的支持。当然,环保运动已经向我们证明了,在政治与人权的冲突中,前者总是战胜后者。攻击加拿大良心石油的言论就证明了这一点。

就像我之前指出的,在大多数情况下,不买加拿大的石油也就意味着去购买带血的石油。而且已经有很多的环保主义者已经充分准备好这么做了,同时强迫别人也这么做,以此来显示他们对人权以及一个建立在繁荣和幸福基础上的社会的关注程度。

我想大多数人都会同意,减少能源消耗和节能增效,是一个​​很好的过渡目标。能够明显减少能源的使用,并且使生活水平的日益提高的最好办法,就是减少人口。加拿大已经向世界证明了这是可行的。加拿大不仅是一个巨大的天然碳汇,而且也是世界上出生率最低的国家之一。这是一件好事,因为这给了我们更多的时间去寻找下一个最好的能量来源。

我们暂时还没办法离开石油,起码在下一代之前是这样,而如果考虑到它的其他用途,这个时间也许会更长。 加拿大石油是最好的选择,因为它储量丰富,价格不菲,创造就业机会,生产过程能够得到监视和改善。

人民,环保主义者,甚至非加拿大人都不会因为帮加拿大指出如何改善石油这项基本必需品的生产而被枪毙或监禁。事实正好相反。他们可以在这个过程中起到重要作用,但当然,首先他们必须选择这么做。他们也可以选择传播仇恨和误解,而不必担心被枪杀或监禁,这些对他们来说已经不会陌生。

至于哈珀,不用担心。与其他石油生产国不同,我们的政府一直是轮流执政,而且不必通过流血的方式。

hi again  

Hi CGN, Political issues should not change the facts, nor should science depend on ones political beliefs. I suspect that all sides agree on that to some extent, except those that cannot stand the light of day. Which should lead one to ask what kind of society they would be working towards.

Almost every part of the planet is claimed by someone other than the people currently controlling it. Respecting all those claims can only lead to war and bloodshed. It is a nice to think everyone can move back to the Africa they came out of but that isn't possible in the real world.

When it comes to supporting some of those claims in Canada it can also mean supporting a racial apartheid system that is every bit as immoral as that in South Africa. Which is to be expected as South Africa based their system on Canada's. Such systems, with their segregation and racial, even tribal and family discrimination should not be given support due to moral and basic human right concerns. Of course the environmental movement has shown us that their politics often trumps human rights when they conflict. That is best seen in their attack of Ethical Canadian Oil.

As pointed out, not buying Canadian oil in most cases means buying blood oil. That so many other environmentalists are fully prepared to do that, and force that choice on others, shows the level of concern they have for human rights and a society based on prosperity and happiness. .

I think most would agree that reducing energy use and being as efficient as practicable is an excellent transitional goal. The best way to reduce energy use significantly and have an increasing standard of living is to have a declining population. Something Canada has already shown the world is possible. Not only is Canada a large country with massive natural carbon sinks but the birth rate is one of the best in the world. Which is a good thing as that gives us more time to find the next best source of energy.

Meanwhile oil will be with us for at least another generation and much longer for it's many other uses. That oil should be Canadian oil because there is a lot of it, it is expensive, employs more people and it's production can be monitored and improved.

People, environmentalists, even non-Canadians will not be shot or imprisoned for helping Canadians by pointing out ways to improve the manufacture of a basic necessity. Just the opposite. They can have an important role in the process but of course only if they choose to. They can also choose to spread hate and misinformation without fear of being shot or imprisoned, something they seem to already know.

As for Harper, don't worry about him. Unlike other oil producers we can and do change our governments all the time and do so without bloodshed.